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Post by Wing on Nov 2, 2006 20:29:54 GMT -5
Okay. I think it's safe to say we all detest Patton...
So let's bash him!
I HATE Patton. The man had no flare: he was an ignorant American who is now considered "an American hero" by most of our population. But take a look at his reputation! A. The soldier-slapping incident B. The "Nazis and Jews are just like Republicans and Democrats back home" incident C. The "Rommel, you magnificent bastard!" quote. How dare he refer to Erwin in such a manner? (Note that he was attempting to be COMPLIMENTARY) D. His vocabulary E. His IQ F. RRRRRRRRRRR everything about him. G. His looks H. His mom (heheh yo mamma Patton...I hate those jokes.)
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Post by Desert Stallion on Nov 2, 2006 20:50:37 GMT -5
His language was atrocious. Every other word was cursing, evidently. I don't like that especially.
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Post by Qualerei on Nov 2, 2006 21:02:32 GMT -5
Well, I don't mind too much his "Rommel, you magnificent bastard" quote. I mean, I don't like his language either, but that was supposed to be a compliment... On the other hand, what I hated most in the movie depicting his actions in WW2, was the fact that he wanted to go forward only to beat Monty - his vanity probably cost the lives of soldiers who might have lived otherwise.
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Post by Wing on Nov 3, 2006 6:52:35 GMT -5
I know! I like Monty much better than I like Patton because he didn't treat everything like a contest: he was a cautious fighter who understood war to be a serious business, not a game. Besides, if anyone deserved a victory against the Germans, it was the British...
And yes, apparently every other word he said was a curse...you should read Fox On The Rhine and Fox At The Front, Stallion. *winces* It's terrible.
But the question is--would Rommel have liked him? The authors of Fox On The Rhine and 'At The Front really seem to think so. Do I?
Nah. The only thing they had in common was that they were aggressive commanders, but their styles were completely different, so I think it pretty much ended there.
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Post by Desert Stallion on Nov 3, 2006 8:37:19 GMT -5
I actually did read The Fox on the Rhine, and Fox on the Front. Even though they're fiction, they're based in fact, and they're mostly what made me not like Patton. I don't believe Rommel would have liked him either, maybe his agressiveness, like you said, but their personalities were opposites. Rommel was a chivilrous fighter, kind of an old-fashioned feel to him. Patton...well...Rommel wasn't near as sharp-tongued either; he only got after people on the military field, and that rarely. He never would have slapped one of his own soldiers, or an enemy soldier for that matter.
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Post by Qualerei on Nov 3, 2006 9:22:35 GMT -5
I barely started to read Fox at the Front, but I agree ; at the end of fuchs am rhein, Rommel seem to think he rather likes Patton. Although, you know what they say... opposites attract each other. But, I mean, even other Allies Generals had a hard time bearing with Patton, so there's no reason an Axis field marshal would have liked him. Reminds me of a text written by a German after WWI, I don't remmeber the title (read it in my history book). When speaking about Germany and Germans, the guy concluded : "British people despised us, the USSR's ideology was contrary to ours, the French hated us ever since 1870. In the end, noone liked us."
Well, I think we can say the same about Patton... in the end, no one liked him. That being said, seems like at least some people cared about him, because after his death, I read somewhere that about 20,000 soldiers offered to be pall-bearer. Guess Patton was more likeable dead than alive.
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Post by Wing on Nov 3, 2006 17:12:35 GMT -5
youtube.com/watch?v=_bxn5EQwJIkHAHA! This video is totally Patton-worshipping crap, but watch it to the end, skip ahead if you have to...the first and last parts are hilarious.
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Post by Qualerei on Nov 3, 2006 17:48:57 GMT -5
Duh ! *hits patton on the head* Pity we can't shoot fan movies... it'd be fun to make a fanfilm about our favourite field marshall.
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Post by Qualerei on Nov 3, 2006 17:52:07 GMT -5
This site's pretty interesting. I think some of these videos are actual archives. I got to see Rommel getting a new decoration... he looked so happy !
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Post by Qualerei on Nov 3, 2006 22:50:48 GMT -5
Well, I was just wondering ; why do so many people like Patton ? And I tried to come up with a variety of reasons, although it was hard to think of said reasons when I loathe the man. Okay, maybe "loathe" is a bit strong. Let's say, I don't like him.
1. He was one of the good guys 2. He did have some success as a general 3. His two colts were pretty cool (or not ?) 4. His helmet was ugly, which made Rommel's cap look good in comparison. Not that he needed said comparison 5. He didn't manage to defeat Rommel 6. He believed in reincarnation (who do you think he was reincarnated into ? Hmm, maybe someone whose name starts with a "b" and ends with an "h"...) which sometimes made him look crazy, and that was fun to see in the movie the face his aide made. 7. His name is easier to pronounce than "eisenhower" or "montgomery" (which would account for his having a nickname as complicated as "old blood and guts" to make up for it, when on the contrary Eisenhower and Montgomery both had real short nicknames).
And as for the "would Rommel have liked him" question, well, there's this quote from the desert fox :
"Be an example to your men, in your duty and in private life. Never spare yourself, and let the troops see that you don't in your endurance of fatigue and privation. Always be tactful and well-mannered and teach your subordinates to do the same. Avoid excessive sharpness or harshness of voice, which usually indicates the man who has shortcomings of his own to hide."
Doesn't sound to me like Patton's style. So Rommel probably wouldn't have liked him.
And now that we've stated reasons for people to like Patton, it's only natural that we should do the same for Rommel himself.
1. He's fighting on the bad guys' side 2. He was the youngest field marshall of the German Army and one of the greatest military genius ever 3. He was luckier than any other person I've ever heard of 4. He pulled out these crazy stunts that make us laugh so much and which are the source of so much inspiration 5. His cap made Patton's helmet look bad in comparison (and Patton's helmet would have been better off without the comparison) 6. He was beaten but that wasn't his fault 7. He's got a cool nickname (the coolest nickname of all WW2 I'd say) 8. His name is pronouncable, although probably differently in each country 9. His hair can be either brown or blond, and his eyes either blue or brown (or hazel) according to the person watching at the photographs. 10. He was part of a plot to kill Hitler, and no Allied General can say the same 11. He was a great skier 12. And a good engineer (he did manage to pull back together his car) 13. He flew his plane without a license 14. That's getting a bit unfair for this poor Patton. He just isn't up to the challenge, so I'll stop here I think...
I'd try to come up with reasons to dislike Rommel (just to be fair with Patton) but I can't seem to find any...
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Post by Desert Stallion on Nov 4, 2006 8:51:02 GMT -5
Well, to some people, the fact that he was on the bad guys' side would be a reason to dislike him. He did, by his genius, prolong the war in which Hitler and his goons were slaughtering thousands. I personally think it makes him an enigma. He was an honorable man fighting for the worst regime in recent history. I often wonder how that came about. Other than that, I can't see why people wouldn't like him. He does have a very sly, foxy smile...
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Post by Qualerei on Nov 4, 2006 10:35:04 GMT -5
Well, in my opinion, it's exactly this enigma and paradox that make him all the more likeable. I mean, it makes him more complex and difficult to fathom than a goody-goody guy like Monty or Patton. An honourable general, fighting on the evil's side ? As for how that came about... I think he was a loyal German, fighting for the greatness of his country ; he must have felt, too, the humiliation my country bestowed Germany with the Versailles treaty, and that was harsh on many German soldiers. He thought, for a time, that Hitler would be able to give Germany back its pride, although he had little use for nazis. But when he first met with Hitler, from what I read, he was pretty enthusiastic about it... It's only later that he changed his mind. He eventually realised Hitler's shortcomings, only he had now a choice between betraying his leader, or betraying his country. The answer may seem obvious now, but that was not an easy choice to make, as he was very respectful of the law (he didn't like much the Weimar republic but was loyal to it because it was the legally instituted state of Germany). Besides, I don't think he knew just exactly what happened to the Jews. Had he known, and known it early enough, things might have been different...
Hmm, now that's interesting... another what if. What if he had seen what happened to the Jews ? Would he have confronted Hitler ? Surrendered his army ? Defected to the Allies ? Oh, even better ; what if, upon learning of the death camps, he had tried to free the Jews with his army, defying Hitler like that ? Even if he had remained otherwise loyal to Germany, that would have made him a counter power, and Hitler might have had to live with it because he'd need Rommel's troops to win the war... what do you think ?
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Post by Desert Stallion on Nov 5, 2006 9:14:26 GMT -5
I won't tell you much, he he he, but my Fox Hunt story kind of uses your what if scenario, but that's in the far future. Funny how a thread on Patton turns to Rommel. Who'd want to expound on Patton too long when there's Rommel just waiting?
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Post by Qualerei on Nov 5, 2006 10:52:47 GMT -5
Yeah, well, this forum is called the Desert Foxhole, after all, and Patton is kinda uninvited here... except when we need someone to blame/bash, naturlich.
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Post by Desert Stallion on Nov 5, 2006 15:04:07 GMT -5
Yeah, throw the poor bum out. I must say this for him; he did do his part to bring Hitler's Reich to an end, and for that I'm grateful.
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