|
Post by Desert Stallion on Nov 26, 2006 15:48:01 GMT -5
Yeah, he had fangirls. In some book there was recorded a letter from one of them. Evidently Rommel was amused by them and actually mailed some on to Lucie. You're right, I bet she loved that. Might make a good story idea or a picture.
|
|
|
Post by Qualerei on Nov 26, 2006 16:25:42 GMT -5
Loool ! That got a good chuckle out of me (yeeeess, I did just steal that turn of phrase from you, I confess). Next time I write a Rommel fic, I'll have to put one of these letters in... wonder if they're displayed somewhere so we can read them. And that would make a great pic.
|
|
|
Post by Wing on Dec 11, 2006 6:40:35 GMT -5
*coughcoughLuciewithapanzercoughcough*
|
|
|
Post by Desert Stallion on Dec 11, 2006 9:03:42 GMT -5
Lucie with a panzer? Say what?
I think there actually is one letter at least online. It's from a little girl, and if I can find it again, I'll put it up here.
|
|
|
Post by Qualerei on Dec 11, 2006 22:24:49 GMT -5
Good idea. However, that's not that surprising. Rommel was depicted as a hero in Germany, and if I had lived during WW2, I might have done the same... (only it would have looked bad because I'm French... Guess I'd have had my head shaved by someone and been thrown rocks at...) Maybe there were photographs of him, postcards, stuff...
I'm starting to wish I'd been my grandmother. Or maybe not. She really hates the Germans. And we're sixty years later.
|
|
|
Post by silverwolf on Nov 13, 2007 22:36:16 GMT -5
Hehe, you and me both . But I have to admit, in my deepest, darkest thoughts I tend to wish I had some way to bring dead people back to life... You know what I'd absolutely love to do? Bring Rommel, Robert E. Lee, Patton, Hamilton, Jefferson, Napoleon, Louis XIII, Frederick the Great, Catherine the Great (of Austria) Ceasar, and Alexander the Great all together in one big spot and then watch the drama unfold *evil grin*. But I'd also have to have the ability to sit them down and interrogate them, one by one... that would be so much <i>fun</i>!
|
|
|
Post by Qualerei on Nov 15, 2007 23:40:05 GMT -5
Well, that's doable. After all, that's what writing is for, is it not ? (if you do write that, let me know !) Although I'm curious - why Louis XIII instead of Louis XIV ? The latter is usually more, well... popular. And did you notice how many people were called "the great" ? Teh, they lacked imagination. And I'd personally scratch Patton from the list - can't stand the man. Did you watch the eponymic movie ?
|
|
|
Post by silverwolf on Nov 16, 2007 15:09:04 GMT -5
Right Louis the XIV is actually who I had in mind...(but if you've ever read (or seen the movie) The Three Musketeers, you'll find that Louis XIII was actually a fairly interesting person...in a stupid, plodding type of way...) Yes, I know what you mean...I can name a ton of "Great"s right off the top of my head... they were a bunch of egomaniacs, the whole lot of them (although I think Napoleon gets the comes in first for that...) Honestly, that's one of the reasons I could never really stand Patton...from what portrayals of him that I've seen, his ego is just SO BIG. Another reason to like Rommel, he at least had some humility. Are you talking about the movie PATTON? I saw parts of it on youtube, but ended up getting frustrated with Patton, and so went to watch "The Desert Fox" instead. If you've been to Normandy, (you do live in France...right?) did you ever go to the German Cemetery? It's not to far from the American Cemetery, if I remember correctly.
|
|
|
Post by Qualerei on Nov 16, 2007 19:46:55 GMT -5
Of course, I've read the three musketeers... but I did not find Louis XIII very interesting. Richelieu was sooo much more clever. And he had this evil charisma, too. Better than Mazarin.
Egomaniacs, eh, you're probably right. Although, Napoleon does have an excuse. He started from the very bottom of the social ladder, and climbed at the very top in a matter of year. That would go to anybody's head, mine included. Patton doesn't have that kind of excuse, though - and he was ill-mannered, too. However, I have to disagree about Rommel - the man was definitely egotistic, as much as I admire him I have to say it. From what I've read, he was... how did Wing put it ? "obsessed by his own publicity". According to one of my sources, a sure way to please him was to have a camera nearby - even if there was no film inside...
I watched the whole Patton movie, if only for the sheer pleasure of banging my head against the wall and saying how bad Patton is, lol. The desert fox is, of course, much better, although I did not find the actor completely satisfying. I don't know if you watched 'Allo 'Allo, but the actor who plays general Klinkerhoffen looks a lot like Rommel, and would have been more suitable. Though actually, the one I would really have *loved* to see as Rommel is Marlon Brando. He would have been perfect for the role, and I do mean perfect. Too late, I guess. His two war movies were very good (Morituri and the Young Lions).
If I've been in Normandy ? Actually, I lived there for two years, in Caen to be more precise. The place was pretty much destroyed during the war, although the old castle is still standing. I never went to the German cemetery, though - or any other. When I lived there, I was not yet interested in WW2. But if I ever go back (which is likely, if only to take my driver's license) I'll probably make sure to visit it, if possible.
Have you ever been to France ? Where do you live, by the way ? And how did you get interested in Rommel ?
|
|
|
Post by silverwolf on Nov 20, 2007 21:11:38 GMT -5
Hmmm, I was flipping through Three Musketeers, and I think your right...Louis XIII is a rather pathetic figure. Guess I need to re-read it. (But yes! Go Cardinal Richelieu! And Fouquet, from Man in the Iron Mask!) "Obsessed with his own publicity?" That's quite succinct. I'll admit, I have read that Rommel wasn't exactly "sackcloth and ashes" humble, but I've also read, that for all he loved to talk about his campaigns, it was usually about his mistakes, and not his successes. And I'm not too sure that his fame went quite to his head, the way Napoleon's did (although he was definitely camera-happy!) And, I was under the impression that Napoleon was the son of a Corsican nobleman (although that didn't exactly mean much in a country under French rule), so wouldn't that have put he and Rommel on about the same footing when first entering the army? I mean, I thought Napoleon was in the "happy-middle class" (he certainly didn't come from the kind of background Hamilton did. At any rate, personally, I believe that if anyone had the right to be arrogant, it was Hamilton.) Marlo Brando? I'm afraid I've never heard of him. When was he acting? Is he English? American? French? You watch Patton just to...bang your head against a wall at all the bad points? I'm afraid that when people start acting really stupid in movies I tend to bury my head in a pillow, and see if I can make the stupidity go away... *grin*. You lived in Caen?! I am sooooo envious!!! I live in the US. We have practically NOTHING of historical value here, which means I'm dying to go everywhere else. I've always wanted to spend more than 6 days in France... Yes, I have been to France, but it was only for a few days studying "Sir Winston Churchill and World War II" with a college. I've done a bit of traveling Europe (England, Germany, Italy, Spain) with my family, but France is the one country that we never "officially" got to. As you can probably guess, I've been interested in history all my life, but I only recently discovered Rommel. Actually, it happened in a kind of odd way: I was doing an interview for school of a WWII veteran, and he happened to make the random comment "Hitler hated Rommel." I was surprised enough (and confused enough) to go do some research on Rommel. Of course, now I know that Hitler didn't really hate him (at least I don't THINK so) but by that time I found Rommel fascinating enough to continue studying him anyway. Rommel is like a puzzle I'd like to crack, and for me at least, one of the pervading questions is how could such an honorable man as Rommel continue to fight for Hitler, even after he began to understand just what type of monster he was dealing with. (Of course, this is besides the fact that he is relatively good looking, a genius, a complete gentleman, and apparently good humored... ) So, you do live in France then? And, I know that this is kind of random but, who, exactly, is Balaurul? Is it Wing? All these names are getting confusing...and is 'Allo 'Allo in French?
|
|
|
Post by Qualerei on Nov 21, 2007 3:22:49 GMT -5
Well, perhaps you're right about Rommel and his fame. I never found much information about that (I really have to finish reading Speidel's and Luck's memoirs...). The truth was probably somewhere in between ; perhaps he wasn't unhappy about his fame, but not arrogant either. Where did you read that about Rommel ? I'm not sure about Napoleon, I heard he was from a humble background... ha, I just checked on wikipedia and indeed, you're right. So what we were taught at school about him was not exactly accurate. Well, I suppose the teachers did not want to put down a national hero... Or perhaps as you said, his title did not mean much under French rule - that would also explain why he changed his name from Napoleone or Nabulione to Napoleon, which sounded more French. Never heard of Hamilton, though. I had a look on wikipedia, but that's a common name, so I can't tell who you were referring to. Marlon Brando is an American actor, if I remember correctly. He is well known for his peculiar way of talking in mumbles (but his German accent is quite good). He was acting in the second half of the XXth century. If you get a chance, try to watch Morituri and the Young Lions - great movies. No, no, no, it's actually fun to watch Patton and hit him on the head (in thoughts, at least). It's even more fun with a friend, then you can exchange comments with him/her about the characters' stupidity, arrogance, and any other flaw, real or imaginary. I haven't seen many movies bad enough to do that kind of things, but it's usually so bad that it's funny. Well, the US have their good sides too. But of course, since American history really started four hundred years ago, and since the war was fought mainly in Europe... But you have things about the war of Secession, for instance. That being said, there aren't that many things to see in Caen. Apart from the museums, which I haven't visited, there was D-day beach, but it looks like any other beach. The only funny thing that happened was when policemen came to my high school to remove a WW2 mine, but since that was on saturday, we weren't even inside the school when it happened, ha ! You got a chance to interview veterans ? Now it's my turn to be envious ! So what else did they say about Rommel ? I discovered about him when I was studying two years ago, I had a history class and the teacher spent four months telling us about the rise of nazism. It was my favourite class ! The funniest part is that the teacher mentioned Rommel hardly once or twice, but somehow I was intrigued and I tried to know more about him, just like you. Why he followed Hitler, I have thought about that myself for a while. I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer, but my guess is there are several reasons : - First, Rommel was rumoured to be very respectful of authority ; and Hitler was legally the leader of Germany. - Secondly, he was part of the French campaign (if we can call it that, teh), but he didn't stay afterwards, so he did not witness the more sordid aspects of occupation ; and according to Hans von Luck, who stayed longer in France than Rommel, at the beginning things were going rather smoothly between Germans and Frenchmen. For instance, while he (von Luck) was besieging a town, he asked his men not to hit the historical buildings, including an abbaye which was known for the alcohol it produced. He got the chance to speak with the Abbott later on, and the man was so grateful that he promised to give a bottle of alcohol to each of von Luck's men. Of course, the Abbott paled a little when Hans told him he had more than a thousand men, but he kept his word. So, there was likely nothing to shock Rommel while he was in France. - When he was in Africa, he was the leader of all Axis forces, so he could make sure things were done up to his standards, that prisoners were not mistreated, etc. and he was probably too busy to listen to possible rumours about death camps (extermination started only in '42 if I remember correctly, after the Wannsee conference). At this time, Rommel was in a bit of trouble against the Allied forces, and he probably did not get that many news from home. - However he probably began to feel doubts when Hitler provided little supplies and gave insane orders such as "fight to the last", orders which he disregarded. (And he's probably one of the only ones who would dare do so). But that probably did not warrant a coup d'état, in his opinion. Not yet. - And finally he found himself on the French shores, and he probably began to have more doubts, but it was already late '43, early '44. Being back in Europe, and in German-occupied territory, he probably had more access to rumours about death camps, and he probably could see the situation in France. But then, that's probably when he agreed to play a part in Stauffenberg's plot, although the extent of his involvement was never known. That's the best I was able to come up with. And you're right, he's good looking, chivalrous, and good-humoured And did I mention, insanely reckless ? Probably had a good fairy as a godmother, because I swear this man should have died a dozen times at least. He had a charmed life. Yes, I live in France. I've been moving a lot, but currently I live in Grenoble, in the south-east of France - I'm a student there. I study politics, economics and management. It might have been fun to study history, but I didn't want to be a teacher or an historian, I prefer to study history for fun in my spare time... What about you ? Yes, Balaurul is Wing - different pseudos tend to get in the way, I know She signed up as Balaurul, but we were so used to calling her Wing that she eventually gave up and resigned herself. No, 'Allo 'Allo is not in French, it's in English. Actually, it's impossible to find it in France, I had to order it on the net. But the series is set in occupied France, it's the story of a café owner who finds himself collaborating with both the Germans and the French resistance, while trying to hide his love affaire with several women... it's hilarious, even less serious than Hogan's Heroes, but impossible to resist. Between Lt. Gruber's little tank and Herr Flick of the Gestapo's schemes to arrest the resistance and find the paintings... The characters speak four different languages - French, English, German and Italian - so they use accents. Strangely enough, though the English have trouble being understood, the French, Germans and Italians don't seem to have any problem to communicate... Anyway, it's a great series, so give it a go if you get the occasion !
|
|
|
Post by silverwolf on Nov 26, 2007 21:27:47 GMT -5
I read about Rommel's minimal arrogance in various sites, but mostly I made this analysis from books...(I think the Rommel Papers were one, and of course one of the sites was Wiki, I live off Wiki...and Encyclopedia Brittanica, Answers.com, stuff like that...(so, I'm not sure how trustworthy it is, but I figure the Rommel Papers is pretty trustworthy.)) Oh, stupid, stupid me! GRRRRR. I meant Alexander Hamilton (one of America's founding fathers, born in the West Indies, and responsible for our good credit as a nation. I guess that this is what happens when you study too much American History; you automatically assume that because you think of one person first, everyone does...) Sorry about that :} Hehe, my brother likes to actually mime hitting people on the head when they act really stupid in movies. (He'll actually get up, walk to the TV, and then proceed to flap his hand around, so that his shadow looks like he's hitting the offending image, or kicking...) Personally, when I see stuff that's really bad plot-wise, I tend to give a running commentary. That's always fun. War of Secession? So that's what Non-American's call it! Oooh! It sounds way cooler than just Civil War...Hmm, I guess your right. Maybe it's just one of those "Grass is greener on the other side things." I'm American, so I wish that I could be European instead (and claim all that wonderful European History as my own, instead of just borrowing it, so to speak.) Although, to defend my country, I will say that American history does has its cool parts. I absolutely adore the Revolutionary War! I'm afraid that the Vet didn't say anything else about Rommel, besides that "Hitler made R. kill himself." (Which is enough to make anyone curious, anyway.) Rommel respectful of authority? Where did you learn that? I always thought that disrespect of authority was one of his hallmarks as a commander. I mean, wasn't he ordered to defend in Africa, and not attack at all? As for the rest of your points, I agree with you there (Ha! Von Luck sure is Lucky! (Ok, sorry, I just couldn't resist...)) Anyone who had to deal with the Italian Commanders on a regular basis probably had his hands full. (They're unwillingness to provide him with adequate supplies was probably part of the reason he lost in El Alemain, anyway.) Rommel had a sense of humor? Oh, so cool! (Jeez, this guy is fast turning into my dream man...) And he was definitely reckless! You know, I heard a story, that while in Africa, he was trapped behind enemy lines, so what does he do? He visits an allied hospital and proceeds to offer supplies to the doctors there! And charmed life is absolutely right! By rights, he probably should have died the day that he charged three soldiers with an unloaded gun! I'm actually a high school student, so I don't have any major picked out yet. At the moment, I'm pretty certain that I'll major in anything BUT language, English, or history, because the only jobs you can really get are (as you said) teaching ones. I also prefer to study history in my spare time, but it's partially because I tend to get very focused on one small facet of a larger time, and prefer to spend all my time studying that facet than all of the other stuff. Ah ok. Well, I think I'd prefer to consider her Wing...easier to spell, for one thing. Hmm, you wouldn't happen to know why she likes Speidel so much? (And please, I'm desperate - it could NOT have been Speidel who incriminated Rommel, could it?!) On a side note, do you know anything on another of Rommel's ADCs - Westphal (from the Afrika Korps days, he's mentioned a lot in The Rising Tide, at least)? My gosh, 'Allo 'Allo sounds hilarious! I have to see if I can find that...
|
|
|
Post by silverwolf on Nov 26, 2007 22:20:45 GMT -5
Ok, I just had to post this, that I found 'Allo 'Allo on youtube. This show is pure genius!
|
|
|
Post by silverwolf on Nov 27, 2007 22:27:22 GMT -5
Ok, I just had to post this, that I found 'Allo 'Allo on youtube. This show is pure genius! And I have decided that I really like Hans Geering! And Otto Flick (of ze Gestapo!)
|
|
|
Post by Qualerei on Nov 28, 2007 10:03:43 GMT -5
Darn, my computer bugged and erased the answer I was just finishing to type. I hate my computer. Yeah, Wiki is *the* website, isn't it ? I checked Rommel's page, both in French and English (there were no additionary information in French though - actually the page in French is much shorter). Anyway, I'll have to finish the Rommel papers whenever I find the time. Ah, so it was this Hamilton... well, it's normal you assumed I'd know, if he's such a famous figure in the US. It's a little like when I speak about Rommel to my classmates. They stare blankly at me, think for some time, and then : "he was a Nazi, wasn't he ?" hmph. I gave up. Mime hitting sounds like fun, eheh. I could pat Patton on the head. Though the running commentary must be something too... Then, there's the drinking game. "Take a sip each time Patton is being obnoxious. Take two sips each time Patton is being boorish." But better to avoid alcohol with that one - you wouldn't get halfway through the movie. Yup, we call is war of Secession. I didn't know you called it differently in the US... You only ever call it the Civil War ? Hehe, if you spoke to a French about the Civil War, he'd answer "which one ?". That being said, regarding WW2 it might be better to be an American. I mean, *we* surrendered after a few months, and *you* had to come over here and save our sorry hides. It doesn't look very good for our ego. Not to mention Vichy's shameful behaviour during the war, the rafle of the Vel d'Hiv for instance. When I read about that, I think I can understand why the Germans are even nowadays still so uneasy each time WW2 is mentioned. That being said, I like the Revolutionary war too ! Eh, for once the French were on the good side. Although I don't know much about it. Well, I watched the Patriot like everybody else, but that's pretty much it. Hehe, I used to say that Hitler suicided Rommel... As for his being respectful of authority, I meant to the higher authority, that of the state. Hitler having been lawfully chosen as head of Germany, he had to be obeyed. That's not the same as disregarding military orders because Rommel knew better - I read on a website that "Rommel realized that the High Command didn't know about tank warfare, so he simply cut the communication and explained everything later. His staff criticized Rommel for his behavior and they were often unable to find out where Rommel was." I guess that Rommel, aware that, being on the frontline, he knew better than High Command and had to take action accordingly rather than follow orders blindly ; but being unpolitical, he probably did not feel the same way when politics was involved, and so did not feel like he was in any position to comment on Hitler's leadership of Germany. You're right about dealing with the Italians, though ! (have you seen Bertorelli in 'Allo 'Allo ?) I'm even starting to sympathize with Kesselring (although Rommel did not hold him in a very high regard). I read about this hospital anecdote too ! But I'm not sure the Allies even realized who he was, in that hospital. I've read somewhere that the uniforms were so bleached by the sun, that Allied soldiers once walked in a German occupied town, in daylight, without being noticed ! Speaking of the desert, have you seen the series "the Rat Patrol" ? It's about four Allied soldiers who harass Rommel's troops in Africa. Rommel himself doesn't make an appearance, but the Allied soldiers' main foe is Haupt. Hans Dietrich, and there are some nice episodes with the guy. You're right about English or History as giving way mostly to teaching jobs, but what about language ? I mean, you could become a translator or something, no ? By the way, which languages do you study ? ...let me guess. German ? Nope, I dunno why Wing likes Speidel so much - I might be able to tell you when I'm done reading Speidel's book though. Speaking of Speidel, have you seen a picture of the guy ? Doesn't he remind you of another character of WW2 ? I'm asking, because I want to make sure whether it's my imagination or if he really looks like that man... I don't know for sure whether it's Speidel who incriminated Rommel, but I highly doubt it, from what I read. Doesn't seem the kind of person who would give his superior officer and friend away... As for Westphal, I did a quick search about him on the net, found a few things that might interest you : "Rommel, sur l’argumentation du lieutenant-colonel Westphal, décide d’une nouvelle offensive le 13 janvier 1942." (trans : Rommel, upon Lt-Col Wetsphal's argumentation, decided on a new offensive on January 13th 1942." Seems like he listened to his ADC's advice "Other Germans who contributed to the Rommel wave included Siegfried Westphal, Rommel’s former chief of staff at El Alamein. He wrote the apologetic Army in Shackles (1950), seeking to exonerate Army leaders who were being charged individually following the collapse of the collective indictment at Nuremberg in 1948." Original title of his book is "Heer in Fesseln : aus den Papieren des Stabschefs von Rommel, Kesselring und Rundstedt". He also appeared in the World at War series. Is there some information in particular you're trying to find ? Hey, that's great that you found 'Allo 'Allo ! This show is awesome, isn't it ? Herr Flick of ze Gestapo is fun, but I prefer Lt. Gruber and his little tank. Oh, yeah, and General von Klinkerhoffen, in all his Prussian stiffness, is great too ! On a side note, René Artois' accent is excellent - I was surprised to read the actor was British, actually - I though he might be French. If you like shows and/or movies about WW2, I can forward you the little (hum) list I made. I tried to list all movies and series about this period. I have only managed to find a few so far, but I'm working on it
|
|