So did he have a personal life?

[Desert Stallion]

Le gasp! (and that is the extent of my French...I probably butchered the grammer.

The forum started up again, and with a new member? Cool. Welcome to The Desert Foxhole, Silverwolf. I'm glad to see you here. I am...drum roll...The Desert Stallion, commonly known as DS. How'd you find out about our little forum?

Anyway, a few thoughts on some of the recent discussions.

Rommel wasn't very humble. I watched a movie of him once on a WW2 documentary this summer, and he was loudly proclaiming that the Germans were going to whip the incoming Allies in Africa. Granted, he might have been in trouble if he had not said so, but he appeared rather enthusiastic. Also, and I can't remember if I found this in The Rommel Papers or a The Desert War, but Rommel and Manfred were talking one day over Rommel's photographs. Manfred wondered at the amazing amounts of pictures Rommel had showing off his great advancements. Rommel then told him that he "never photographed his own retreats."

As far as why Rommel followed Hitler, you have to look at the German personality of those days. Germany was a very military-based, order-operated nation. To break one's oath to the government was considered a massive crime, a stain on even one's personal honor. Thus, Rommel was loath to take action against the government of his nation, since he had taken that oath. Oaths were taken extremely seriously in Germany, especially in the military.

Random topic change, but America has more history than you might think. We have the Puritan Era, Jamestown, French and Indian War, Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, The Texas War for Independence, The Mexican-American War, The Civil War, the Spanish-American War, World War I, and World War II, not to mention the more recent wars. We have had countless inventors, missionaries, and explorers. The Mob of Chicago, the Migration West, etc. Consider the Aztecs and other older tribes of South and Central America. Then there are the Plains Indians. Of course, there's not as much history as in Europe, and I regret that, but I'm happy here. There's enough to keep me occupied for some time to come.

That's pretty hilarious. I'm majoring in secondary history education, go figure. I'm also considering a double major in History/Political science, as if I don't have enough work already... I guess I love the stuff so much that I never want to get away from it. And to learn history and get paid for it? What a dream! (Teaching it has got to be like a live forum, too, lol.)

And boy,do I love my almost halfover Western Civilization class. It's absolutely fascinating. We're currently dealing with the scientific advances of the Renaissance Era. (lol, side note, I finished a paper on Machiavelli, took a personality quiz, and found out that I'm considered a "high Mach," a person who thinks like Machiavelli. Somewhat unsettling.

To end on a Rommel-note, he definitely had a sense of humor...I mean, he owned two dachsunds. I need to finish my story, but I don't have it with me here at school. Maybe over Christmas break I can post it.

[Qualerei]

Hum. I'm sorry but I really don't see what "le gasp" means, lol. Are you sure that's French ?

As for Rommel being not so humble, well, I guess he was neither humble nor all that vain. He liked to speak of his victories, which is understandable, but I'm sure he also liked to study his defeats so as to understand what went wrong. Besides, his speech to the army about how they were going to win were probably good for morale... I mean, he wasn't going to tell them they would lose. And he had confidence in his abilities, which he was entitled to...

Hehe, America sure had its share of wars. One thing I always wondered, though ; in school, you don't study only American history, do you ? I suppose you also study the history of Europe, since Americans mostly came from there, no ? I'm asking 'cause around here we're not taught much about American history - or the history of any other country, really, except those that declared war on France at some point. Major points of American history are sometimes mentioned in passing in English class, but that's pretty much it. (That's kinda stupid, but we actually spend more time studying Ancient Greece than the US nowadays...)

Yay for Machiavel ! The man was a genius. Sadly I never did finish his book (it's somewhere deep in a carton) but I fully intend to.

As for art and writing, I think we're all kinda busy right now, but perhaps in January we can speak about it and see if we have any good idea ? By the war, Silverwolf, do you draw or write ?

And please do finish your story, DS ! Speaking of stories... hum... *cough* Fox hunt ? ^^ (Silverwolf : DS has begun to write a Hogan's Heroes story, in which the Heroes meet Rommel. It's on ffnet, so if you get the occasion give it a go, it's a pretty good story).

[Desert Stallion]

"Le gasp" is a sort of a play off the old animated Winny-the-Pooh series that Disney made a while back. Instead of gasping aloud when he was surprised, Tigger would always just say "gasp." I use it quite often. It's not real French by any means, but it sounds fun.

Speaking of France, I love your country's Gaston Leroux. He was the one who wrote the original book, Phantom of the Opera. Great story, that one.

Yes, well, Rommel had plenty of reason to be proud. After all, he was fighting a lost battle, and he almost won it, lol. Similar to Lee's experiences.

In America I think we discuss Europe quite often in highschools, but it's been a bit since I was there. Old and moldy now... But in college, we definitely go over European history; that's what my entire Western Civ. class is over.

Fox Hunt...writer's block, and major Phantom of the Opera distraction? (I've been writing and drawing...just not what I should be.) I'm trying to get chapter 16 to work, but every time I start to think I have something, I end up throwing it away. I have improved with my Phantom of the Opera fic though, so when I get my muse back, my practice should help Fox Hunt.

And I did draw a picture, but it's Darth Vader, not Rommel, lol. Such a shame...I want to draw Rommel, but he's so hard to capture, pardon the pun.

[Qualerei]

Right. Winny-the-Pooh. I'm afraid it's been a loooong while, lol. But if you want to know some useful words, I can give you a few mild French curses. One of my favourites is "diantre !" though it's kinda old-fashioned

Hey, Gaston Leroux, he's the one who wrote that story about Rouletabille... so, I see you're fascinated by phantom of the opera, right ? Did you write about it ? I should check your ffnet profile more often, I guess

Back to Rommel, yeah, he had major disadvantages - fewer men and supplies, to begin with, and it got worse and worse, since the eastern front was eating up all of Germany's resources.

Hey, if *you* are old and moldy, what does that make me ? Hum, on second thought, forget it - I don't want to know

Anyway, I'm not going to blame you for writing and drawing about other stuff than Rommel, since I've been doing exactly the same. That, and I subscribed to Yuletide, so I've got a story to finish before Christmas... I hate deadlines !
Oh, and this Vader picture, is it available on deviantart ?

[silverwolf]

Hehe, thanks for the warm welcome, DS! This place is suddenly looking very lively! . Actually, I found out about this place through a good, old fashioned Google search on “Erwin Rommel.” Truth be told, I tend to haunt places like the foxhole a lot, but have never been able to nerve myself to join until now. (It must be the history; God knows I’ve never been able to resist history… .

Well then, I guess that we can say that Rommel was not humble. At least we can safely say that he was not falsely modest (I have to admit, I absolutely despise people who are falsely modest simply because they want to wring a few words of praise from you…)

You’re probably right, DS. That’s kind of how I’ve explained to myself how Rommel could continue to follow Hitler right up till (at least) 1943. I suppose in a way I can respect that. Breaking an oath *is* a terrible thing, no matter who it is made to (unless to someone as evil as Hitler…ARGH, now I’m confusing myself!!!)

You discuss Euro Hist in College? YAHOO! I had to become homeschooled before I could ever get a decent class in Euro History… the public schools that I’ve gone to all focus on Asian, African, South American, (and lastly) American history. (In that order. Yes, it’s very, very sad.)

And yes, I have seen DS’s Fox Hunt on ff.net (brilliant story, btw . As well as a really awesome one called Of Snakes and Foxes. As for me, I can’t draw to save my life…but I do have a few stories brewing about in my head, I guess you could say it’s just a matter of getting up enough nerve to write them down (and I tend to never finish what I start, so I don’t know how enjoyable it would be to read half a fic…)

I totally agree with you about Machiavelli, he really did have the right idea about how a Prince should run his government. Even today, modify his ideas a bit, and they still end up holding water. Also Qual, if you like Machiavelli, I would recommend the Federalist Papers. About half of them were written by Alex Hamilton, who’s been called the Machiavelli of America. While not exactly Machiavellian in idea, they are still a very good look at how M. (may) have thought the American gov. should be run (and they're just plain good-to-read, anyway.)

[Qualerei]

Yay for Google search ^^ Though there mustn't be that many people who look up "Rommel" on google, since as you can see we are a very, very small community. It all started as a joke, actually. We kinda read each other's stories on ffnet, and we began to write e-mails to each other, and then we nicknamed ourselves the "Rommelteers". (For some reason, the three musketeers came up in the conversation, and well...) And then Wing created this forum.

And you're right, Rommel had no reason not to be proud of his accomplishments. I know I would have been if I had been in his shoes. What I love best about him are his unconventional schemes - he always came up with new ideas, simple yet brilliant. Like the time he buried his Flak cannons in the sand so as to hide them, then lured allied tanks in a trap and beat them.

Breaking an oath sure isn't easy (at least when the oath-breaker has at least some amount of honour, which Rommel definitely had). Not to mention risky - and he did have his family to consider. Though Manfred defected later on... anyway, it would have been great if Rommel had been able to escape, though he probably would never have worked for the Allies. No matter his feelings towards Hitler, I think his first loyalty was ever to Germany.

So you are homeschooled ? Ain't it a little annoying not to see friends at school ? My lil' brother was homeschooled for years too, and I remember he felt quite lonely when his older siblings weren't around. By the way, do you have siblings ? Do they share your interest in history ?

*moans* Lord, I knew I should have deleted this story. I'm so ashamed of it ! I wrote that a while ago, and my English was awful back then. And the storyline was terrible too... hmph. lol. I actually wrote four chapters of the sequel before giving it up (the way it begun, it would have been twice as long as snakes and foxes...)
Anyway, please do tell us about your ideas. I promise we won't steal them *grins* but it's always interesting to know about possible stories, and we might be able to give you ideas and suggestions. Even if you never do write them, I always find it stimulating to do a little brainstorming...

The Federalist papers ? Never heard of that, but it sounds interesting. Though I highly doubt I'll have any luck finding them in France. I was looking for a book in English a few days ago, but I gave up after four or five libraries... though I fully intend to write down a list of all the books I should buy next time I go to the US.

[silverwolf]

I'M ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! School is going to be the death of me one of these days...long live Christmas Break!

Yes, I'm a real history-nerd like that. Whenever I come across an interesting historical figure, I tend to spend a long time finding out as much as I can about said person. By the end of my "research" I probably know almost everything about whomever I'm researching. It's fun though. (Btw, Three Musketeers is one of my most favorite books ever! Have you read the sequels? If you have, which did you like the best - actually, which Dumas book do you like the best?)

Manfred defected? Wow. What's the story behind that? However, I'm not so sure that Rommel wouldn't have worked with the allies had circumstances gone a different way - he was already seriously considering surrendering Army Group B to the allies. Personally, I think Rommel saw that the war was finished for Germany (kaput!) and was more interested in trying to save what he could from Hitler, the Russians, vengeful soldiers, etc. If the best way to do this would be to work with the Americans and Brits, then I think he would have. (Although given the actual historical events, I find it unlikely that the Americans/Brits would have ever needed his help.)

Actually, all my friends live really close to my house, so I get to see them a lot (and I'm on AIM almost all the time, so we chat often there too.) I have a younger brother and sister, both homeschooled as well, but they drive me nuts, and my history obsession drives them nuts. You could say that living in my house is very...eventful.

No no no! It is a very *good* story! And your English isn't bad at all! (MY grammar is probably worse than your's is, and I'm a native! (Although, I must admit, I was kind of annoyed when you killed Rommel - I know he died, but that's what fanfics are for - to make the impossible, possible!) Coincidentally, I've got a vague idea for a story which will enable Rommel to survive Burgdorf and Maisel...but I'm still trying to make it seem plausible and not too far-fetched. I am also trying to get what facts I do add in to at least seem realistic (like how many day's would it take to drive from Herrlingen through the Black Forrest to Alsace/Lorraine?) Or what (and this is very, very far into the plot) could I do to have Russia and the rest of the Allies fall out?

Actually, I read most of the Fed Papers online through the website: www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/ if your interested. Kind of on a side note, but what religion was Rommel? (Oh, and did you know that Bayerlein was 1/4-Jewish?! Anyone have any idea how Bayerlein managed to serve in the Weremacht?)

Merry Christmas, Everyone!

[Qual]

Yep, I've read the sequel of the Three Musketeers... didn't like much the Viscount of Bragelonne, though, I prefer the stories about the Musketeers themselves. My favourite book is "Twenty Years Later", I love it when d'Artagnan fights with Athos, without knowing it, and Athos recognizes him only when he says a Gascon curse.
Speaking of the three musketeers, have you read the Steven Brust books about Khaavren ? It's made on the model of the three musketeers (I think there's a wiki page about his work, if you're interested)

I'm not sure how exactly Manfred came to defect. Well, that was after his father's death; so it might have to do with that. He surrendered to French Field Marchal de Lattre de Tassigny (I know, quite a mouthful), and served as a translator. Most people had a lot of respect for him and his father.

I think you're right about Rommel, he might have defected if the circumstances demanded it, but it would have been very bitter for a military commander such as him. The Allies might not have needed his help, but I'm sure they wouldn't have refused - it certainly would have saved many lives.

It must be nice to live with your brother and sister. I wish I could see my brothers more often - even if it's true that younger siblings often drive you nuts... my own brothers are at least a little interested in WW2, so occasionally we watch WW2 movies together. That is, when we actually are together, which hasn't happened in quite some time.

Thanks for your compliment about my story, but I assure you, I improved a lot since I wrote this, and I actually wince each time I glance at that story. Actually, Rommel isn't dead. I intended to write a sequel (never got past the fourth chapter), in which the broken time turner sent him to 1980 and he helped Tom Riddle find Grindelwald's lost library. I wouldn't have killed him !

I believe the Black forest isn't very far from the border. I checked on googlemaps how far it is between Herrlingen and Strasbourg, and they say, 237-odd kilometers. Even if they don't take the shortest way, one day is more than enough.
As for Russia, let's see... since they did fall out after the war, you could take some inspiration from that. Or the Russians could plot to take all of Germany and keep it under Communist rule, and if the US learnt about that, they'd do all they can to prevent the Russians to go farther than Berlin, no ?

Thanks for the address, I'll give it a go whenever I find the time !

I have no idea what religion was Rommel, actually. Anyone ?

As for Bayerlein, my best guess is, he kept it a secret ? Did Rommel know about it ? That would make for an interesting sideplot in any story, don't you think ?

[jilldragon]

Rommel was Catholic, I remember that because I read in a book somewhere (Knight's Cross, I think...) that when he wanted to marry Lucie her family was originally against it because they were Protestant.

And yeah Bayerlein probably kept his Jewish blood a secret, though I have the feeling the Rommel might not have cared if he knew. He seems like the sort of person who cared more about what a person can do rather than who their ancestors were. If that makes any sense.

If Rommel had surrendered to the Allies? Well there's a couple of books written by Douglas Niles called Fox on the Rine and Fox at the Front that explore that idea. They were pretty well written from what I remember, so they might be worth reading. Rommel and Patton got to be buddies. ;D

[Silver]

Yay, Rommel was Catholic! (Ok, sorry. I'll admit that I have the unfortunate problem tending to stereotype countries religiously...Germany and England are Protestant, while Spain, France and Italy are Catholic...really stupid of me I know, but I just can't seem to help it...so it's nice to finally see someone who doesn't fit the mold. Thanks for the info Jilldragon!

And, I bet you're right, that Bayerlein kept his Jewish blood a secret. It still is very interesting, though.

I love Fox on the Rhine/Fox at the Front! I got both books over Christmas...read both books in 6 days...I was so tired after that. Yes, Patton was actually likable (gasp!) in those books!

[Qualerei]

So he was catholic. You know, that's funny, because I don't see him at all like a religious man. Well, he probably didn't really have time to go to church in times of war, so I suppose the matter was pretty much swept aside by historians.
It is true though that most people in France are catholics. My own grandparents are.

It's a little surprising that Bayerlein managed to keep his jewish blood a secret - perhaps he knew important people - but it's still interesting. I don't know if you've read Kessel's book about Himmler's doctor. According to him, Himmler told Kersten (his doctor) that Heydrich had Jewish blood. I read later on a website that it was actually not true, but why would Himmler lie about it ? Because, by doing that, he was pretty much saying that he knew Heydrich was part Jew, and yet kept him on his staff and as his second in command. Unless it was a ploy to lessen the impact on morale of Heydrich's assassination ? (as I recall, he told Kersten about Heydrich's alleged Jewish roots only after the man's death in 1942).
It would be interesting to see if anybody else on the German staff had real or assumed Jewish ancestry, and how they managed to get away with it. Did they hide it ? Were they too useful to get rid of ?

Oh, I read these books, Fox on the Rhine/at the Front. Well, actually I never managed to finish the second book, so I probably ought to get back on it. Good books, though I think there are too many main characters.
And a likeable Patton is necessarily out of character Yes, I know I'm being unfair, so what ?

[silverwolf]

That's an interesting point...honestly, I'd never really heard of Heydrich 'till I started trying to study WWII more in depth, and once I learned that he was Himmler's right hand man, I decided he wasn't the kind of chap I'd spend my time pleasure-reading about... Anyway, I think that there really was a top-brass German General (Marke? Mank?) who really was about a quarter (known) Jewish and wasn't (at least to my knowledge) sent to any camp. I'll have to try and find his name again...

Actually, I kind of *do* see Rommel as a (covertly) religious man. Actually, I can't see the son of a small-town, incredibly religious school-master anything but (Although, that could just be me stereotyping again...or it could just be my desire to find a respectable post-reformation Catholic. This year I'm taking AP US History and I've discovered that America was the land of the free and opportunity for nearly every religious sect BUT Catholics. Being Catholic myself, that gets really old, really fast.)

Have you ever read a book called Disaster at D-Day, by Peter Tsouras? If you have, would you recommend it? I've been considering reading it, but I've seen mixed reviews; it's about Rommel and Speidel during D-Day (and how they defeat the allies up to the Stauffenberg Plot) but I've also heard that it reads poorly; more like a military text than a novel. I'll admit, after reading Fox/Rhine-Fox/Front books I've had a very high standard for alternate history books.

And just quickly, Qual: if you've typed up your 4 chapters to the Snakes and Foxes sequel, would you mind emailing them to me? Ever since you mentioned them, I've been very *ahem* - curious - about them.

[Qualerei]

I've never heard of a general called Marke/Manke or anything close, but if you do find his name please let us know. I'd be curious also to see what he did during the war, if he disliked/hated/admired/respected Hitler, these kind of things.

You've got a point if Rommel was raised in a religious family, but I'm not entirely convinced. My mother was raised in a catholic family, yet she's not religious at all...
The way I see it, I'd say Rommel perhaps believed in the Catholic faith, but I doubt he did more than go to church every once in a while. I wonder if Manfred was baptized ?

I've never read the Peter Tsouras book, I'm afraid. If the book is too much of a military text, you could try to decipher it with a friend for instance, perhaps even use a map to see Rommel's moves.

Sure I typed the four chapters in question. Actually, I only ever type, I absolutely hate to write with a pen when working on a story. Feels like a waste of time, since I'll have to type it eventually. Anyway, sure I can send them to you, just give me your mail.

[Desert Stallion]

Howdy, popping in again after a long drought...probably not for long though... But,

I've read Peter Tsouras' book and it's a personal favorite of mine. It is meant to read like a historical military text, which is what gives it such a fantastic flavor. You find yourself thinking, "Boy, if only our history books had looked like that." He does an excellent job in saying what might have been, in such a realistic fashion. It's not a novel, but rather a fake nonfiction book. There are maps and pictures in it, quotes and sources, etc.

I highly recommend it. Rommel has some great moments in it.
It was prety funny at the time. A fake nonfiction text almost spawned fanfiction, hehe...

[silverwolf]

Oh, that sounds cool! Well, you've decided me, DS - I'll have to start pestering people until I can get my hands on the thing!

Qual: That's kind of funny...my mother was not raised in a religious family at all (and her parents were Jewish) but she converted to Catholicism at college, and is now one of the most devoutly religious people I know. Odd, how things sometimes work out...